What is Jodie's thesis?: How do people stay with their values when they empathize? ie not loose their values
What is Link to Training outline? https://docs.google.com/document/d/143D0fhhzlbTyIXExeEazo-iT9lGO4Cxus_3r99N6zfw/edit?tab=t.0Â
I'm Inviting some empathy experts to an interview about definitions and Wholistic Empathy
What to add next to the Wholistic Empathy Presentation
add Empathic Concern
Dan Batson 8 forms of empathy
Training - Training
looking at Criticisms
Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal Meeting Room (07/01/2025)
Edwin and Jodie explored various aspects of empathy, including its application in communication, the challenges of implementing it across different contexts, and its relationship with values and political ideologies. They discussed the limitations of current therapeutic approaches and the potential benefits of incorporating empathy circles into treatment settings, while also examining criticisms of empathy and its role in resolving conflicts. The conversation concluded with plans to develop a training outline on empathy, focusing on its integration into leadership and decision-making processes while addressing potential challenges and criticisms.
Edwin to add empathic concern to the presentation on holistic empathy.
Edwin to include Dan Batson's 8 forms of empathy in the presentation.
Edwin and Jodie to further develop the visual comparison of the drama triangle versus the empathy circle.
Jodie to review and update the training outline, particularly focusing on addressing criticisms of empathy.
Edwin and Jodie to discuss the training outline in more detail at their next meeting.
Jodie to confirm or reschedule next week's meeting time based on her daughter's swim lesson schedule.
Edwin and Jodie discussed the challenges of connecting with others in empathy circles and the overlap between values and needs. They explored how nonviolent communication (NVC) can help identify and address shared needs, similar to finding common ground in values. They also considered the role of interpreters in facilitating communication across language barriers and the potential complications that could arise.
Edwin and Jodie discussed the rise of authoritarianism within woke and left-wing ideologies, particularly in academia. Edwin shared an anecdote about a therapist-in-training who was kicked out of her program for speaking out against woke practices. They explored the irony of left-wing groups accusing others of authoritarianism while exhibiting authoritarian behavior themselves. Jodie presented moral foundations theory, noting the left's emphasis on harm avoidance and fairness, while downplaying authority and in-group loyalty. They questioned the accuracy of these reported values, given the left's apparent authoritarian actions.
Jodie and Edwin discussed the perception of empathy across political spectrums, challenging the common belief that conservatives are less empathetic than liberals. They explored the concept of empathy blocks, including self-righteousness and judgment, and considered the balance between protecting sacred values and empathizing with others. Edwin shared a personal experience from an empathy tent at Occupy Wall Street in Berkeley, where he encountered a violent situation, highlighting the complexity of empathy in high-stress environments and the concept of protective use of force.
Edwin and Jodie discussed the balance between protective use of force and empathy, using historical examples like World War II to illustrate the challenges. Jodie shared her theory about the importance of standing up against bullying and taking a firm stance when values are threatened, drawing on personal experiences and historical cases. They also explored the concept of group identity as a potential block to empathy, though they encountered some technical difficulties while trying to access and edit a shared document.
Edwin and Jodie discussed the distinction between identification and empathy, emphasizing that empathy involves understanding and sharing another person's experience while maintaining a sense of separateness. Jodie shared her personal experience with an ectopic pregnancy to illustrate the difference between empathic listening and identification. They explored the concept of "emergency empathy," where a person provides space and support to someone in distress without imposing their own experiences. Edwin shared his experience with an empathy circle involving his sister-in-law, highlighting the challenges of maintaining boundaries while offering empathic support.
The discussion focuses on the limitations of current therapeutic approaches and the potential benefits of incorporating empathy circles. Edwin and Jodie critique one-sided empathy in therapy, suggesting it can lead to validation without addressing necessary changes. They explore the idea of integrating empathy circles into therapy settings, noting that while it's challenging in one-on-one sessions, it could be beneficial in family therapy. The conversation then shifts to Edwin's current work on defining empathy, his plans to interview academics on the subject, and Jodie's upcoming presentation to Daryl Cameron's research team about empathy definitions and moral psychology.
Jodie and Edwin discussed criticisms of empathy, particularly the concern that it can lead to victimization. They explored the distinction between empathy and diffuse compassion, emphasizing the need for a more holistic approach. Edwin introduced the concept of the empathy circle as a counter to the drama triangle, highlighting its role in helping people exit the triangle. Jodie suggested visualizing the difference between the triangle and the circle to illustrate the inherent imbalance in the triangle. They agreed to continue iterating on a training outline, with Jodie promising to share it with Edwin.
Edwin and Jodie discussed the challenges of implementing empathy in political and organizational contexts, highlighting how power imbalances and misunderstandings of empathy can hinder its effectiveness. Edwin shared an example of using an empathy circle to resolve a conflict at a community center, which successfully de-escalated tensions and led to a positive outcome. They reflected on how empathy could be more systematically integrated into leadership and decision-making processes to foster understanding and collaboration.
Edwin and Jodie discussed the importance of living according to one's values, particularly in situations requiring empathy. They agreed to explore the criticisms of empathy in a training session, deciding to introduce a framework first before delving into specific criticisms. They planned to reconvene next week to further develop the training outline, with Jodie noting a potential scheduling conflict due to her daughter's swim lessons.
https://otter.ai/u/CspMM41_K-eQvTD9RXhhaoG-qVE?view=summary
Jodie Jenson and Edwin Rutsch discuss the challenges of fostering empathy in group settings, particularly in the context of the empathy circle. They explore the concept of nonviolent communication (NVC) and its application in resolving conflicts by identifying shared needs. Edwin emphasizes the importance of mutual empathy and the potential pitfalls of over-emphasizing needs. They also touch on the authoritarian tendencies in woke ideologies and the need for a balanced approach to empathy. The conversation highlights the importance of clear definitions and the potential benefits of empathy circles in fostering deeper connections and conflict resolution.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Explore the idea of a "tower of Babel" video to address the issue of using different terminology to describe the same phenomena.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Incorporate a section on "empathic concern" and Dan Batson's eight forms of empathy into the empathy presentation.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Analyze the criticism that empathy leads to victimization and explore how to address this in the empathy training.
[ ] Consider doing an empathy circle with an interpreter present to explore how translation impacts the empathy process.
[ ] Reach out to Darryl Cameron to discuss definitions of empathy and get his perspective on the "holistic empathy" model.
Jodie Jenson discusses the challenge of connecting with others in the empathy circle due to the dynamic nature of the conversation.
Edwin Rutsch suggests taking notes and bringing up relevant points later to maintain the connection.
Jodie and Edwin explore the concept of nonviolent communication (NVC) and how it relates to empathy, using the example of fairness and needs.
They discuss the idea of finding shared values and needs in the empathy circle to create deeper connections.
Edwin Rutsch explains the principles of nonviolent communication (NVC) and how it builds on Carl Rogers' work.
They discuss the importance of identifying shared needs and values in conflict resolution.
Jodie and Edwin explore the idea of common humanity and how understanding each other's needs can lead to deeper connections.
They reflect on the language barriers that can hinder effective communication and empathy.
Jodie Jenson suggests using the Tower of Babel as a metaphor for the language barriers in communication.
They discuss the potential benefits of using an interpreter in the empathy circle to facilitate communication.
Edwin Rutsch mentions the three-stool mediation approach from NVC, which involves reflecting and guessing needs.
Jodie and Edwin explore the challenges of over-emphasizing needs and the importance of balancing empathy and other values.
Edwin Rutsch discusses the authoritarian nature of the woke ideology in academia and therapy training.
Jodie Jenson shares her experience studying ideological bias in psychology and the irony of accusing others of being authoritarian.
They reflect on the moral foundations theory and how different political ideologies value different moral principles.
Edwin mentions a case where a Christian therapist was kicked out of a program for vocalizing her objections to the woke framework.
Jodie Jenson explores the tension between protecting sacred values and empathizing with others.
They discuss the concept of honor killing and how it can create barriers to empathy.
Edwin Rutsch shares his experience with the empathy tent at Occupy Wall Street and the challenges of de-escalating conflicts.
They reflect on the importance of protective use of force with the intention of fostering empathy.
Jodie Jenson suggests that group identity can be a barrier to empathy.
They discuss the importance of differentiating self from others in empathy.
Edwin Rutsch explains the concept of identification and how it can lead to misunderstandings in empathy.
They explore the role of self-other differentiation in Carl Rogers' definition of empathy.
Jodie Jenson and Edwin Rutsch discuss the limitations of one-sided therapy and the need for holistic empathy.
They reflect on the importance of mutual empathy in therapeutic relationships.
Edwin mentions the challenges of implementing empathy circles in traditional therapy settings.
They explore the potential benefits of teaching empathy skills to clients for better interpersonal relationships.
Edwin Rutsch emphasizes the need for a clear definition of empathy and the importance of stress testing the model.
They discuss the value of interviewing other academics and researchers to get different perspectives on empathy.
Jodie Jenson shares her plans to present her research on empathy and moral psychology to Darryl Cameron's research team.
They explore the idea of adding empathic concern to their definition of empathy.
Edwin Rutsch mentions the criticism that empathy leads to victimization and the importance of addressing it.
They discuss the Drama Triangle (victim, perpetrator, rescuer) and how empathy circles can counteract it.
Jodie Jenson shares a childhood memory of a paper chain game that illustrates the imbalance in the Drama Triangle.
They explore the idea of visualizing the Drama Triangle versus the empathy circle to better understand the concepts.
Edwin Rutsch shares a story about using an empathy circle to resolve a conflict over a grill fire at the center.
They discuss the importance of sticking to values and using empathy in leadership.
Jodie Jenson reflects on the decision-making process and the role of conviction to values in empathy.
They explore the challenges of balancing empathy with the need to maintain order and make decisions.