[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
Agenda
Review Jodie's Slideshow - map onto the Wholistic Empathy Definition model and The Empathy Circle.
Zoom - Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal Meeting Room (03/18/2025)
Quick recap
Edwin and Jodie engaged in a comprehensive discussion on empathy, covering its definitions, measurement challenges, and philosophical perspectives. They explored the concept's application in various contexts, including psychology, autism research, and political divides, while also addressing potential pitfalls such as objectification and self-obsession. The conversation touched on personal experiences and collaborative projects, emphasizing the importance of mutual understanding and effective communication in fostering empathic relationships.
Next steps
• Jodie to email Garrett Cardin about potentially joining a future meeting with Edwin.
• Edwin and Jodie to continue discussion about the philosophical aspects of empathy in their next meeting, focusing on the slide with outstanding questions.
• Jodie to review Peter Seer's work on empathic leadership in sports.
• Edwin and Jodie to reconvene next week to pick up the discussion on the final slide of Jodie's presentation.
Summary
AI Tools and Definitions Discussion
Edwin and Jodie discussed the use of AI tools like Otter for documenting and summarizing meetings. They also reviewed Jodie's definitions slide and planned to discuss the philosophical differences in the definitions. Jodie mentioned her need to leave the meeting early to attend other meetings. Edwin also mentioned a new Saturday meeting he started, which had 3 attendees in the last session. He expressed his intention to make this a recurring project.
Empathy: Clarifying Definitions and Importance
Jodie and Edwin discussed the various interpretations and definitions of empathy, acknowledging the confusion it can cause. They agreed that different terms and concepts are often associated with empathy, and that understanding these nuances is crucial. They also touched on the importance of open dialogue and empathy in addressing differing opinions and ideas, emphasizing the need for effective communication and understanding.
Collaboration With Garrett on Autism Projects
Jodie and Edwin discussed their collaboration with Garrett Cardin, a neuroscientist at BYU, on autism and art projects. Jodie mentioned that they will start meeting regularly to work on projects, and she plans to invite Garrett to join their next meeting. Edwin suggested the possibility of an empathy circle with Garrett, which Jodie found interesting. They also briefly discussed Simon Baron Cohen's work on empathy and autism research at Cambridge.
Inconsistent Empathy Measurement in Research
Jodie discussed the issue of inconsistent measurement of empathy in research. She highlighted that researchers often choose scales that don't align with their own definition of empathy, leading to problematic results. Jodie also presented a study that found people who rated highly on the Interpersonal Reactivity Index used self-focused language in their social media posts. She suggested that this discrepancy could be due to a difference in the concept of empathy being studied versus the actual understanding of another person's perspective.
Empathy: Balancing Self and Other
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy and its relation to the individual. Jodie expressed concerns about the focus on the individual in the term "einfuhlung," which she believes diminishes the other person.
Edwin clarified that empathy involves sensing into the other person's experience, not just projecting one's emotions. They also discussed the importance of active listening and the role of boundaries in empathy. Jodie highlighted the potential for self-obsession in some interpretations of empathy, while Edwin emphasized that empathy is a quality of oneself that can enhance one's sense of self.
Exploring Unmitigated Empathy in Psychology
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of empathy, particularly in the context of psychology. They highlighted the issue of viewing empathy as an internal trait, rather than recognizing its impact on others. They also touched on the idea of self-sacrifice in empathy, which they deemed problematic and unhealthy.
Jodie introduced the term "unmitigated communion" to describe a situation where one constantly gives without considering their own needs. They concluded by expressing interest in exploring the concept of "unmitigated empathy" further.
Mutual Empathy in Relationships
Edwin discussed his relationship with a woman who had been experiencing distress and manic phases. He provided her with emergency empathy for two and a half hours, during which she expressed a range of emotions, including criticism of him. However, she refused to listen to him afterwards, leading to the end of their relationship unless they could establish a mutually empathic relationship through an empathy circle. Edwin also mentioned a similar situation with his brother, who had been working behind his back on a project. Edwin expressed his willingness to maintain a relationship based on mutual empathy and openness.
Empathy's Limitations in Psychology and Therapy
Jodie and Edwin discussed the importance of empathy and its limitations in psychology. They explored the philosophical perspectives of Buber, Levinas, and Boss, emphasizing the need to recognize the infinite and unknowable nature of human potential. They also touched upon the concept of I-thou relationships in therapy, as proposed by Rogers and Buber. The conversation concluded with a discussion on the objectification of people, with Edwin seeking clarification on what this might look like in an empathy circle.
Objectification in Interpersonal Relationships
Jodie and Edwin discussed the concept of objectification in interpersonal relationships, particularly in conflict situations. Jodie emphasized the importance of recognizing individuals as the authors of their own stories and not labeling them as good or bad. Edwin raised the example of political differences and how they can lead to objectification. Jodie further explained that objectification can occur when people are viewed as either facilitators or obstacles to personal goals. They concluded that understanding and relating to individuals as complex, ungraspable beings is crucial for fostering empathy and deeper connections.
Bridging Political and Personal Divides
Jodie discussed her work on bridging political and personal divides, including facilitating an empathy circle with a group in early February.
She shared an analogy of a hot air balloon ride, emphasizing the importance of communication with the ground crew and self-reflection. Jodie also raised questions about higher levels of empathy that respect the other person's perspective while considering their potential. Edwin suggested further discussion on these topics and shared a link to Peter Seer's work on empathic leadership in sports.
https://otter.ai/u/FUZfZCG4Ahm_hyLct6glEuua1pQ?view=transcript
Edwin Rutsch and Jodie Jenson discussed organizing meeting documents on definingempathy.com, including AI transcripts and summaries. They reviewed Jodie's slides on empathy definitions, emphasizing the need for clear terminology to avoid confusion. Edwin shared his experience with an empathy circle and the importance of mutuality. They discussed the challenges of empathy in psychology, including the objectification of others and the need for a balanced approach. Jodie mentioned her collaboration with a neuroscientist on autism and art projects and her interest in exploring higher levels of empathy that respect individual perspectives and potential.
[ ] Reach out to Garrett Cardin, the researcher at BYU, to see if he can join a future meeting.
[ ] Look into the work of Peter Seo on empathic leadership in sports.
[ ] Continue the discussion on the higher level of empathy that allows the empathizer to maintain their own convictions and values.
Edwin Rutsch discusses the organization of meeting documents on definingempathy.com, including AI recordings from Zoom and Otter.
Jodie Jenson inquires about the site name, and Edwin confirms it is definingempathy.com.
Edwin shares his workspace for the project, mentioning the ability to screen share.
Jodie Jenson expresses amazement at the organization and AI tools used for transcription and summarization.
Edwin mentions the need to review Jodie's slideshow and map it onto the holistic definition of empathy.
Jodie Jenson notes she needs to leave the meeting at 10:45 due to other commitments.
Edwin mentions a Friday meeting at 9 AM and the participation of people with backgrounds in empathy.
Jodie Jenson shares her screen to review the definitions and discuss philosophical differences in empathy.
Jodie Jenson explains the different facets of empathy and the confusion caused by varying definitions.
Edwin and Jodie discuss the importance of clear terminology and the impact of different interpretations on research.
Jodie mentions Elon Musk's perspective and the need for open conversations to resolve misunderstandings.
Edwin shares his experience with a critic who refused to discuss his ideas, highlighting the importance of dialogue.
Jodie Jenson introduces the concept of the empathy circle and its role in fostering mutual understanding.
Edwin and Jodie discuss the importance of mutuality in empathy and the challenges of one-sided relationships.
Jodie mentions her collaboration with a neuroscientist at BYU on autism and art projects.
Edwin suggests involving the neuroscientist in their meetings to further their work.
Jodie Jenson discusses the disconnect in empathy research due to inconsistent definitions and scales.
Edwin and Jodie explore the implications of different philosophical perspectives on empathy.
Jodie highlights the issue of objectifying others and the need for a more nuanced understanding of empathy.
Edwin shares a personal story about providing emergency empathy to his sister-in-law and the importance of mutuality.
Edwin discusses the challenges of maintaining empathic relationships with family members and colleagues.
Jodie Jenson emphasizes the importance of self-empathy and grounding oneself in the empathy process.
Edwin and Jodie explore the concept of unmitigated communion and its negative impact on empathy.
Jodie shares her experience facilitating an empathy circle with a diverse group and the benefits of mutual understanding.
Jodie Jenson introduces the philosophers Buber, Levinas, and Boss and their contributions to understanding empathy.
Edwin and Jodie discuss the limitations of psychological research in capturing the full human experience.
Jodie emphasizes the importance of recognizing the infinite and unknowable nature of humans.
Edwin shares insights from a conversation between Rogers and Buber on the challenges of achieving an i-thou relationship in therapy.
Jodie Jenson discusses the objectification of others in sports and the need for a more empathic approach.
Edwin mentions Peter Seabrook's work on empathic leadership in sports and its relevance to their discussion.
Jodie expresses interest in exploring the higher levels of empathy that allow for maintaining personal convictions.
Edwin and Jodie agree to continue their discussion in the next meeting, focusing on specific philosophical perspectives and practical applications.
what does Martin Buber mean by I-thou?
ChatGPT said:
Martin Buber's I-Thou concept, introduced in his 1923 book I and Thou (Ich und Du), describes a way of relating to others that is deeply personal, reciprocal, and genuine.
Mutual Presence: In an I-Thou relationship, both individuals engage with each other fully, recognizing the other as a whole being rather than an object.
Dialogue and Connection: The relationship is based on direct, meaningful interaction rather than instrumental or utilitarian purposes.
Sacred Dimension: Buber suggests that the I-Thou relationship has a spiritual or transcendent quality, as it brings people into deeper connection with each other and, ultimately, with God.
In an I-It relationship, the other person (or object) is treated as a means to an end, something to be used or analyzed rather than fully engaged with.
I-It interactions dominate most of daily life (e.g., using a cashier for a transaction, reading a book for information) but do not involve deep, mutual presence.
A deep conversation between two friends where both are fully present.
A moment of mutual recognition between two strangers.
A spiritual or meditative experience of connection with nature or the divine.
Buber believed that the I-Thou relationship is essential for authentic human existence and that encountering others in this way leads to greater understanding and compassion.
Would you like an example of how this applies to empathy or empathy circles?
You said:
What would be examples of an I-thou relationship in an empathy circle?
ChatGPT said:
In an Empathy Circle, an I-Thou relationship emerges when participants engage with each other in a deeply present, open, and mutually respectful way. Here are some examples:
A participant listens attentively to a speaker, fully present with their emotions and experiences, without trying to analyze, fix, or respond with advice. Instead of objectifying the speaker’s words (I-It), the listener recognizes them as a whole person, valuing their lived experience.
🔹 Example: A participant shares a personal struggle, and the listener reflects back their feelings and experiences with sincerity and care. The listener sees the speaker not just as someone to be understood but as a fellow human being deserving of presence and connection.
Each person in the circle recognizes the full humanity of the others, setting aside preconceived notions or personal biases. This creates a space where all voices are equally valued, regardless of background or opinion.
🔹 Example: Two people from opposing political perspectives engage in an Empathy Circle. Instead of debating or trying to "win," they truly hear each other, acknowledging the emotions and values behind each perspective. A moment of recognition and shared understanding occurs, even if they continue to disagree.
There are moments in an Empathy Circle when a listener and speaker experience a profound connection—beyond words. The listener fully "gets" what the speaker is feeling, and the speaker feels deeply seen. This moment transcends the transactional nature of ordinary conversations.
🔹 Example: A participant speaks about a loss they experienced. As they share, the listener holds space for their grief, reflecting it back with warmth and presence. The speaker feels not just heard, but deeply understood on a human level.
An I-Thou relationship arises when everyone in the Empathy Circle is truly present, not thinking ahead to their turn, not evaluating what others say, but simply being in the moment with one another.
🔹 Example: A facilitator maintains deep presence with each speaker, welcoming whatever arises with openness, whether it’s joy, sadness, anger, or uncertainty. The atmosphere of the circle shifts from structured turn-taking to a collective experience of mutual understanding.
Buber believed I-Thou encounters are transformative because they allow us to connect with others as whole beings, not as objects or roles. In an Empathy Circle, when participants engage with this depth of presence and respect, they foster a culture of genuine empathy, healing, and social connection.
Would you like ideas on how to cultivate more I-Thou moments in an Empathy Circle?
yes
Great! Here are some specific steps you can take to facilitate these practices and encourage I-Thou relationships in your Empathy Circle:
Facilitator’s Role: As the facilitator, create a welcoming, grounded environment. Start with a short mindfulness or centering exercise to help participants arrive fully in the moment. You can use a simple prompt like, "Take a deep breath and let go of any distractions as we begin this circle." This helps everyone set their intention for listening and speaking with presence.
Check-In Question: After the mindfulness moment, ask participants, “What’s one thing that you are bringing to this circle today—emotionally, mentally, or physically?” This invites them to ground their presence and bring their whole selves into the circle.
Facilitator’s Role: Model reflective listening as the facilitator. When you speak back to a participant, try to reflect not just their words but their emotions and underlying feelings. For example, “It seems like you're feeling overwhelmed and frustrated because you’ve been juggling a lot of responsibilities.”
Prompt for Participants: When someone shares, encourage the listener to first reflect back what they heard, such as “What I’m hearing is...” or “It sounds like...”
Practice Exercise: If participants are new to reflective listening, you can do a small role-playing exercise where one person shares a simple story, and the other practices reflecting back only the emotions or core message of the story. This helps participants build confidence in the skill.
Facilitator’s Role: At the beginning of the circle, remind everyone of the group’s commitment to confidentiality and non-judgment. You could say, "We are here to listen and understand, not to judge or fix anyone’s experience."
Using Agreements: Create ground rules that encourage mutual respect, such as "Listen without interrupting" and "Focus on understanding, not advising." Write them down and make them visible for everyone to see as a reminder.
Gentle Reminders: If someone slips into judgment (for example, offering advice or trying to "fix" the speaker), gently redirect them with something like, “Let’s stay focused on listening and understanding. We’ll have time later for questions or sharing.”
Facilitator’s Role: As a facilitator, set the tone by being open and authentic. You could start by sharing something vulnerable about your own experience (as long as it doesn’t overshadow others’ sharing). This shows the group that vulnerability is welcomed and that they are not alone in their experiences.
Guiding Questions for Sharing: Ask open-ended questions to help participants reflect on their emotions. For example, “How are you feeling about what you shared today?” or “What’s been challenging for you this week?” These questions invite participants to connect with themselves and share from a deeper place.
Facilitator’s Role: Gently remind the group that empathy is about understanding, not agreeing. You could say, “We don’t need to agree with each other to understand each other. Our goal is to hear each person’s experience with respect and without judgment.”
Handling Conflict: If there’s disagreement or tension in the group, don’t shy away from it. Acknowledge the tension and invite participants to listen to the feelings behind the disagreement. You could say, "It seems like there’s a lot of strong feelings here. Let’s take a moment to reflect on what each person is really trying to express."
Facilitator’s Role: Actively monitor the pace of the circle. If the conversation is moving too quickly or feels rushed, pause and invite a moment of silence. You can say, “Let’s take a moment to reflect on what’s been shared so far. How does it sit with you?”
Encourage Pauses: Sometimes participants may feel rushed to speak because they’re worried about time. Remind them that there’s no hurry and that taking a pause can lead to deeper reflection. For example, you can invite, “Take a moment to check in with yourself—what are you noticing or feeling right now?”
Facilitator’s Role: Lead a short ritual at the beginning or end of the circle. This could be as simple as lighting a candle together, passing a "talking piece," or taking a few moments of collective silence.
Group Sharing Ritual: At the beginning of the circle, ask everyone to share one word that represents how they’re feeling in that moment. At the end, you can invite participants to share one word or a gesture of gratitude to close the session.
Facilitator’s Role: Remind the group that the focus is on understanding the person, not solving their issues. If someone begins to give advice, gently refocus them by saying, “Let’s stay focused on hearing each other’s feelings and experiences.”
Guiding the Discussion: Encourage others to ask questions that help them understand the speaker, like “Can you tell me more about how that made you feel?” or “What was that experience like for you?” This allows the person to be the expert on their own feelings.
Facilitator’s Role: Encourage and normalize silence by creating space between speakers. You can say, “We’re going to take a few moments of silence now, so we can really reflect on what’s been shared.”
Use Silence as Reflection: After someone shares, allow a few moments of quiet for everyone to process before responding. Don’t be afraid of awkward pauses—they can provide the opportunity for deeper reflection.
Facilitator’s Role: Model radical empathy by showing a genuine willingness to understand everyone’s experience, even if it’s difficult or unfamiliar. Encourage participants to step outside their comfort zones and engage with someone whose experience differs from theirs.
Empathy Practice: After someone shares, prompt the group with, “How can we understand and feel with this person’s experience, even if it’s not something we’ve experienced ourselves?”
By incorporating these practices, you create an environment where I-Thou moments can naturally unfold. The Empathy Circle will become a place of profound connection, allowing people to feel truly seen, heard, and understood. Would you like more specific tips or exercises for a particular part of the circle?